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When the news media make mistakes, What should Wikipedia do? 편집

Hi, Everyone, I want to hear your opinions

List of military special forces units#Korea, South - ROK


(1) Background knowledge
(1-1) Korean "신속기동부대" = "Quick Maneuver Force", Korean "특수부대" = "Special Force", Korean "특수작전" = "Special Operation".
Google translated "해병대 신속기동부대" into "Marine Corps Rapid Task Force or Rapid Maneuver Unit" in the South Korean sources.
For the record, "(대한민국) 해병대 신속기동부대" = "ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force". These are Korean and English official names.
(1-2) Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force and Special Force is a unit of different concept in the military, likewise, 신속기동부대 and 특수부대 is a unit of different concept in South Korean military.
Of course some Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force are Special Forces, But definitely all Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force are not Special Forces. This is why Wikipedia have independent 2 articles - Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force and Special Force.)



4. Analysis of extra sources attached by Thewolfchild

  • According to RS, Except NBC News, It appears that most sources are unreliable. But I analysed.

(1) english.alahednews.com.lb (2016-??-??) - This source have a follow sentence: a Seoul military official told South Korean Yonhap News Agency.
=> Yonhap News didn't announce that "Spartan 3000" is Special Force Unit or Spartan 3000's task is special operation., Original source from Yonhap News announced that "Spartan 3000" is Quick Maneuver Force.

(2) nbcnews.com (2017-04-07) - This source have a follow sentence: Last year, South Korea announced the creation of a special operations unit called Spartan 3000 to operate behind enemy frontlines inside North Korea
=> South Korean Government and All South Korean media outlets didn't announce that "Spartan 3000" is a Special Operational Unit or Spartan 3000's task is Special Operation, They announced that "Spartan 3000" is a Quick Maneuver Force

(3) ussc.edu.au→news.com.au (2017-09-13)
=> This source don't have the term - "Special Force Unit", "Special Operations".

(4) businessinsider.com (2017-09-12) - This source have a follow sentence: South Korea's defense minister is publicly boasting that it will create a new "decapitation unit" called the Spartan 3000

(5) vox.com (2017-09-12) - This source have a follow sentence: South Korean Defense Minister Song Young-moo told lawmakers of the government’s intention to build the “decapitation unit” on September 4, the day after the recent nuclear test. The administration wants the team ready by the end of the year.

(6) inews.co.uk (2017-09-14) - This source have a follow sentence: Such exercises are the prelude to the formal formation later this year of the unit, Spartan 3000.

(7) thedrive.com (2019-06-29) - This source have a follow sentence: On Sept. 4, 2017, South Korean Defense Minister Song Young-moo suggested the country’s military might create a new special operations element specifically for the task of hunting down North Korean regime members in the event of a crisis. The unit would reportedly work closely with American counterparts training for the same mission, as part of the secretive Operations Plan 5015. Earlier in 2017, the Pentagon denied a report that the Naval Special Warfare Development Group, better known as SEAL Team Six, was in the country training for these potential targeted raids.

“We are in the process of conceptualizing the plan,” Song explained in response to a question from lawmakers about how the South Korean could figuratively decapitate the Kim government, according to The Korea Herald. “I believe we can create the unit by Dec. 1 and have it become operational.” (This is the discription of

=> 틀:Maroon

(8) stripes.com (207-06-06) - This source have a follow sentence: Hedelund, who is going to command the II Marine Expeditionary Force at Camp Lejeune, said his successor will take over as the South Korean marines have formed a 3,000-member quick response force to respond to natiural disasters and other emergencies. They also are developing their own aviation capabilities.

“They want to develop their marine corps toward this task force concept that they have a ready-to-fight kind of crisis reaction force that they would have permanently established. And they have begun that effort,” he said.

The Yonhap news agency reported last year that the unit, dubbed Spartan 3000, had the main purpose of destroying “key military facilities” in North Korea but also has been trained to tackle natural disasters.
=> This source have the term - Quick Response Force and don't have the term - "Special Force Unit" or "Special Opersation".
=> This source is supporting my opinions.

(9) nationalinterest.org (2017-10-19)
=> This source don't have the term - "Special Force Unit", "Special Operations".

(10) popularmechanics.com (2022-08-31)
=> Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as primary or secondary sources.

List of military special forces units 편집

틀:DR case status 틀:Drn filing editor

틀:DRN archive top

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There is a 'Spartan 3000' of Republic of Korea Marine Corps in the list.

Because some western news outlets announced that 'Spartan 3000' is Special Force Unit.

But South Korean news outlets announced that 'Spartan 3000' is Quick Maneuver Force.

In conclusion, 'Spartan 3000' has reliable sources with contradicting facts. So I attached dispute template two times.틀:Disputed inline

But thewolfchild didn't accept the dispute template and removed it without consensus two times.

I endured thewolfchild's arbitrary action and In order to the correct wrong information, I inquired and received official answer from Republic of Korea Marine Corps.

This is the screenshot of official answer from ROKMC - There are website version and document version
Please refer to source annex.(You can see translation of Official Answer)

In conclusion, I verified that sources from western news outlets have wrong information.

But thewolfchild didn't accept this official answer.

Because this screenshot have possibility of forgery via photoshop and violation of sourcing guidelines.

I felt that thewolfchild used knowledge about Wikipedia Rule in order to nitpick.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

I left the message in Wikipedia:Third opinion.

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Please check for falsification of official answer. (I explained the way to verify an authentic document from ROKMC in the talk page, Please find "The way to verify an authentic document from ROKMC" in bold)

Then Please remove the 'Spartan 3000' in the list of article.

Summary of dispute by thewolfchild 편집

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

See comment below (It's less than 250 words). - wolf 23:18, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Buckshot06 편집

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

In late 2016 a bunch of stories began appearing to say that that the 1st Marine Division (South Korea) had established a regimental-size force capable of deploying anywhere on the Korean peninsula within 24 hours. This tasking was designated as the "Quick Maneuver Force."

'Spartan 3000' was just provisional nickname of ROKMC's Quick Maneuver Force in March 2016. As comments by Footwiks make clear, some newspapers interpreted this rotational tasking of an infantry regiment as a "special forces unit."

It does not follow the normal template for South Korean unit nicknames (eg "Fierce Tiger"). Later in May 2016 the nickname chosen was "Jeseung Unit" (제승부대, 제승(制勝) means guarantee victory).

There are not any South Korean or Western sources which 'Jeseung Unit (제승부대)' is called a Special Force Unit.

Western news outlets didn't know about the presence of 'Jeseung Unit (제승부대)' and Western news outlets repeated the incorrect view that the ROKMC still operate a Special Forces unit - 'Spartan 3000'.

I request that any mention of "Spartan 3000" in the article List of military special forces units be limited to a footnote stating that it is an erroneous designation, not adopted by the Republic of Korea Armed Forces, for a *rotational tasking among three regiments,* not a unit, which now has an official South Korean nickname - "Jeseung Unit" ("Guarantee Victory").

I have also pointed Footwiks to the OTRS ticket now WP:Volunteer Response Team process in order to authenticate the response from the ROK Government which can then be uploaded into Commons and used as a reference. Footwiks is starting this process on the Korean Wikipedia. Buckshot06 (talk) 01:46, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Source annex (Footwiks) 편집

1. Sources about: Spartan 3000 is a Quick Maneuver Force, support to remove Spartan 3000 on the list of military special forces units
  • South Korean reliable sources about the unit (Below all sources are published on 20 March 2016)
Original Korean prose from article of Yonhap News
"군 관계자는 "지난 1일 경북 포항 해병대 1사단 예하에 3천명 규모의 연대급 신속기동부대가 창설됐다"고 20일 밝혔다.
이 부대의 별칭은 고대 그리스의 최정예 전사였던 스파르타인들을 연상시키는 '스파르탄 3000'으로 지어졌다.
Translation: ROKMC had formation of the Quick Maneuver Force (신속기동부대) - regiment size, subordinate unit of ROKMC 1st Division, the unit dubbed 'Spartan 3000'
  • FYI - Newest South Korean reliable sources about the unit (as of June 2023)
(1) Newest Primary source
It goes as follows.
(1-1).
2016년 언론에서 보도된 '스파르탄 3000 (Spartan 3000)'이라는 명칭은 해병대에서 공식적으로 붙인 명칭이 아니며
현재 공식 명칭은 해병대 신속기동부대(ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE)입니다.
Translation =>
ROKMC didn't officially designate the name - 'Spartan 3000' which announced by the the press in 2016.
Currently, official name is ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE.
(1-2).
'제승부대(Jeseung Unit)'라고도 불렀지만 현재는 해병대 신속기동부대(ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE)라는 명칭으로 통일해서
사용하고 있으며 해병대 신속기동부대(ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE)는 새롭게 창설된 특수부대가 아니고
기존 1사단 내 소속 부대들이 번갈아 임무를 수행하는 형태로 운영되고 있습니다.
Translation =>
The name - 'Jeseung Unit' had been in use in ROKMC.
But, currently the name - 'ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE' is in use consistently.
ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE is not newly formed Special Force Unit.
Currently, subordinate units in the 1st Marine Division undertake a task of the Quick Maneuver Force in turn.
(1-3).
현재 '스파르탄 3000(Spartan 3000)'이라는 명칭으로 운영되는 부대는 대한민국 해병대에 없습니다.
Translation =>
Currently, Republic of Korea Marine Corps don't have any units with the name - 'Spartan 3000'.
(2) Newest Secondary source
사단의 2개 여단이 합동참모본부로부터 지정돼 임무를 수행하는 '해병대 신속기동부대'는 기동전력을 상시 편조해 어떠한 지역으로도 신:속하게 출동할 수 있는 태세를 갖춘다.
Translation =>
2 brigades undertake a task of the Quick Maneuver Force in turn, ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force is capable of fast deployment outside anywhere.


2. Analysis of 4 Western sources attached by Thewolfchild
Firstly, South Korean sources about 'Spartan 3000' are published on 20 March 2016,
(1) Telegraph source (2016-03-21) - Telegraph source have a follow sentence - "according to the Seoul-based news agency Yonhap
(2) The Diplomat source (2016-03-24) - "The Diplomat source have a follow sentence - "a South Korean military official revealed to Yonhap News last Sunday."
But Below is the original Korean prose from article of Yonhap News Agency (연합뉴스) published on 20 March 2016.
"군 관계자는 "지난 1일 경북 포항 해병대 1사단 예하에 3천명 규모의 연대급 신속기동부대가 창설됐다"고 20일 밝혔다.
이 부대의 별칭은 고대 그리스의 최정예 전사였던 스파르타인들을 연상시키는 '스파르탄 3000'으로 지어졌다.
(Translation of gist: ROKMC had formation of the Quick Maneuver Force - Regiment Size, Subordinate unit of ROKMC 1st Division on 1 March 2016, the unit dubbed 'Spartan 3000')
Original sources from South Korean Yonhap News (연합뉴스) didn't have any terms - "Special Force Unit (특수부대)", "Special Operations (특수작전)",
But Telegraph and Diplomat source created terms "Special Force Unit (특수부대)" and Special Operations (특수작전)" in the article. They made a translation errors or intentional journalistic exaggeration.
(3) New York Times (2017-09-12) - NY Times source have a follow sentence - "the South Korean defense minister, Song Young-moo, told lawmakers in Seoul that a special forces brigade defense officials described as a“decapitation unit" would be established by the end of the year."
틀:Maroon
Most importantly, NY Times source absolutely didn't have any terms "Spartan 3000" or ROK Marine Corps.
Therefore, NY Times source was definitely not about the "Spartan 3000", actually NY Times source cited this Korean language source (4 September 2017).
송영무 "北지도부 참수작전 수행부대 12월1일 창설"
(Translations: Song Young-moo (송영무) said that Decapitation Unit for North Korean Heads will be formed on 1 December 2017)
In conclusion: NY Times source was about the ROK Army 13th Special Mission Brigade / Decapitation Unit established by the end of the 2017.
For Check: On 1 December 2017, Officially, ROK Army 13th Special Forces Brigade reorganized as a ROK Army 13th Special Mission Brigade / Decapitation Unit.
특수전사령부의 13 공수특전여단이 특수임무여단으로, 이른바 김정은 참수부대로 개편됐는데요.
(Translations: ROK Army 13th Special Forces Brigade in ROK Army Special Warfare Command reorganized as a 13th Special Mission Brigade / Decapitation Unit (참수부대) for Kim Jong Un.)
충북 증평 흑표부대가 ‘김정은 참수부대 (Decapitation Unit for Kim Jong Un)
충북일보는 4일자 신문을 통해 충북의 향토부대인 증평 흑표부대(13공수특전여단 / ROK Army 13th Special Forces Brigade)가 유사시 북한 전쟁지도부 제거 임무 등을 수행사는 1000명 규모의‘특수임무여단'으로 개편됐다고 보도해 관심을 끌었다.
(Translations: 13th Special Forces Brigade undertake task of Decapitation Unit for Kim Jong Un.)
(4) Nzherald (2017-09-13) - Nzherald source have a follow sentence - "according to UK newspaper the Telegraph" and "New York Times Korea correspondent Choe Sang-Hun reported" (NY Times source's reporter was also Choe Sang-Hun)"
This source is full of howlers. Reporter mistook the "Spartan 3000" (cited Telegraph source) for ROK Army 13th Special Mission Brigade / Kim Jong Un Decapitation Unit (cited NY Times source) then reporter blended the "Spartan 3000" and 3th Special Mission Brigade / Decapitation Unit (참수부대) together in the article.
  • Excerpt
Spartan 3000: South Korea's elite decapitation unit
New York Times Korea correspondent Choe Sang-Hun reported Seoul is using the unit to send a menacing message to Pyongyang.
He wrote it was rare for a government to announce a strategy to assassinate a head of state, but Seoul wants "to keep the North :on edge and nervous about the consequences of further developing its nuclear arsenal".
The unit is due to be fully established by the end of the year,
틀:Maroon
according to the South Korean defence minister Song Young-moo said the unit could conduct cross-border raids, while re-tooled helicopters and aircraft could also enter North Korean territory at night.
(cited Korean source (4 September 2017): Song Young-moo (송영무) stated that Decapitation Unit will be formed on 1 December 2017)
In reality the unit is capable of much more than that.
SPARTAN 3000
The special force unit, which was first unveiled last year, can be deployed to any part of the Korean Peninsula within a day, :according to UK newspaper the Telegraph.
(5) In conclusion: firstly: NY Times source (4 September 2017) was not about the "Spartan 3000", secondly: Nzherald source :(13 September 2017) cited Telegraph source (21 March 2016) and NY Times source (7 September 2017) - Nzherald Reporter mistook Spartan 3000 for 13th Special Mission Brigade / Decapitation Unit (참수부대) established by the end of 2017 then Reporter blended them together in the article.
Telegraph source (21 March 2016) and The Diplomat source (24 March 2016) cited South Korean Yonhap News Agency (연합뉴스).
But original Korean prose from source of Yonhap News (연합뉴스) didn't have any sentences and terms - "Spartan 3000 is a Special Force Unit or Spartan 3000's main task is the Special Operation."
Telegraph and The Diplomat sources (published on March 2016) made a translation errors or intentional journalistic exaggeration.
  • Arrangement
Published Sources Flaws Citation
2016-03-21 Telegraph Translation errors or
intentional journalistic exaggeration 		Original South Korean source from
Yonhap News (연합뉴스)
(2016-03-20)
2016-03-24 The Diplomat Translation errors or
intentional journalistic exaggeration 		Original South Korean source from
Yonhap News (연합뉴스) (2016-03-20)
2017-09-12 NY Times Not about the "Spartan 3000"
This source was about the 13th Special Mission Brigade / Decapitation Unit (참수부대) 		Original South Korean source from
Yonhap News (연합뉴스) (2017-09-04)
2017-09-13 Nzherald Reporter mistook the "Spartan 3000"
for the 13th Special Mission Brigade / Decapitation Unit (참수부대)
then blended the "Spartan 3000"
and the 13th Special Mission Brigade / Decapitation Unit (참수부대) together in the article. 		Telegraph and New York Times.


3. Analysis of South Korean sources attached by Thewolfchild (Six South Korean sources are published on 20 March 2016)
(1) Background knowledge
(1-1) Korean "신속기동부대" = "Quick Maneuver Force", Korean "특수부대" = "Special Force", Korean "특수작전" = "Special Operation".
Google translated "해병대 신속기동부대" into "Marine Corps Rapid Task Force or Rapid Maneuver Unit" in the South Korean sources.
For the record, "(대한민국) 해병대 신속기동부대" = "ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force". These are Korean and English official names.
(1-2) Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force and Special Force is a unit of different concept in the military, likewise, 신속기동부대 and 특수부대 is a unit of different concept in South Korean military.
Of course some Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force are Special Forces, But definitely all Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force are not Special Forces. This is why Wikipedia have independent 2 articles - Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force and Special Force.)
(2)
Upper six South Korean additional sources attached by Thewolfchild saying similarly as follows:
ROKMC had formation of the Quick Maneuver Force (신속기동부대) - Regiment Size, Subordinate unit of ROKMC 1st Division, dubbed "Spartan 3000". (5 South Korean news articles had term: 신속기동부대, 1 English news article by South Korean press had term: Mobile Unit)
(3)
Upper six South Korean additional sources attached by Thewolfchild definitely didn't say as follows:
ROKMC had formation of the Special Force Unit (특수부대) - Regiment Size, Subordinate unit of ROKMC 1st Division, dubbed "Spartan 3000". (5 South Korean news articles didn't had terms: 특수부대 / 특수작전, 1 English article by South Korean press didn't had term: Special Force Unit / Special Operations)
In other words, In the upper six South Korean additional sources, We can't find any sentences as follows:
"Spartan 3000" is a Special Force Unit (특수부대) or Main tasks of "Spartan 3000"' are Special Operations (특수작전).
(4)
In conclusion: Spartan 3000 is a special force unit and This is supported by upper 6 South Korean sources. Thewolfchild's this statement is the Original Research, Rather 6 South Korean sources attached by Thewolfchild are consistently supporting that 'Spartan 3000 is a just Quick Maneuver Force, definitely not a Special Force Unit.Footwiks (talk) 18:53, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

(5) Cause of misunderstanding about South Korean sources
Now it all makes sense, I translated the South Korean sources by Google translator. Google translated "해병대 신속기동부대" into "Marine Corps Rapid Task Force or Rapid Maneuver Unit" in the South Korean sources.
It appears that thewolfchild misunderstood that my South Korean source are not about ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force.
So, rather thewolfchild added my sources at his source annex.
For the record, "(대한민국) 해병대 신속기동부대" = "ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force". These are Korean and English official names.
From 2016 to 2023, All South Korean sources have the term necessarily "해병대 신속기동부대" and subsidiarily "스파르탄 3000 (Spartan 3000)", "제승부대 (Jeseung Unit)", as nicknames

Footwiks (talk) 12:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope, I didn't "misunderstand" anything. Unless Footwiks wants to claim that each of those six sources does not specifically confirm the unit name as "Spartan 3000". That's all I "understood" them to say and that's the only reason I added them to my annex and stated that I might use them as additional sourcing. I made no other claims. (fyi this, my 17th edit, is a reply to Footwiks 448th edit -no lie- ...could the moderator perhaps remind editors here about the wp:preview function? This is seriously blowing up the page history which could create needless difficulties for all editors using the DRN board. Thanks) - wolf 14:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
Those six South Korean sources published in March 2016 have similar Korean phrase.
"군 관계자는 "지난 1일 경북 포항 해병대 1사단 예하에 3천명 규모의 연대급 신속기동부대가 창설됐다"고 20일 밝혔다.
이 부대의 별칭은 고대 그리스의 최정예 전사였던 스파르타인들을 연상시키는 '스파르탄 3000'으로 지어졌다.
Translation: ROKMC had formation of the Quick Maneuver Force (신속기동부대) - regiment size, subordinate unit of ROKMC 1st Division, the unit dubbed 'Spartan 3000'
But Google translated "신속기동부대" into "Rapid Task Force", sometimes "Rapid Rapid Maneuver Unit".
Please remember that Those six South Korean sources published in March 2016 have terms "신속기동부대 (Quick Maneuver Force)", nickname "스파르탄 3000 (Spartan 3000)" but don't have any terms "특수부대 (Special Force Unit) and "특수작전 (Special Operations). Footwiks (talk) 15:10, 16 June 2023 (UTC)


4. Analysis of extra sources attached by Thewolfchild

  • According to RS, Except NBC News, It appears that most sources are unreliable. But I analysed.

(1) english.alahednews.com.lb (2016-??-??) - This source have a follow sentence: a Seoul military official told South Korean Yonhap News Agency.
=> Yonhap News didn't announce that "Spartan 3000" is Special Force Unit or Spartan 3000's task is special operation., Original source from Yonhap News announced that "Spartan 3000" is Quick Maneuver Force.

(2) nbcnews.com (2017-04-07) - This source have a follow sentence: Last year, South Korea announced the creation of a special operations unit called Spartan 3000 to operate behind enemy frontlines inside North Korea
=> South Korean Government and All South Korean media outlets didn't announce that "Spartan 3000" is a Special Operational Unit or Spartan 3000's task is Special Operation, They announced that "Spartan 3000" is a Quick Maneuver Force

(3) ussc.edu.au→news.com.au (2017-09-13)
=> This source don't have the term - "Special Force Unit", "Special Operations".

(4) businessinsider.com (2017-09-12) - This source have a follow sentence: South Korea's defense minister is publicly boasting that it will create a new "decapitation unit" called the Spartan 3000

(5) vox.com (2017-09-12) - This source have a follow sentence: South Korean Defense Minister Song Young-moo told lawmakers of the government’s intention to build the “decapitation unit” on September 4, the day after the recent nuclear test. The administration wants the team ready by the end of the year.

(6) inews.co.uk (2017-09-14) - This source have a follow sentence: Such exercises are the prelude to the formal formation later this year of the unit, Spartan 3000.

(7) thedrive.com (2019-06-29) - This source have a follow sentence: On Sept. 4, 2017, South Korean Defense Minister Song Young-moo suggested the country’s military might create a new special operations element specifically for the task of hunting down North Korean regime members in the event of a crisis. The unit would reportedly work closely with American counterparts training for the same mission, as part of the secretive Operations Plan 5015. Earlier in 2017, the Pentagon denied a report that the Naval Special Warfare Development Group, better known as SEAL Team Six, was in the country training for these potential targeted raids.

“We are in the process of conceptualizing the plan,” Song explained in response to a question from lawmakers about how the South Korean could figuratively decapitate the Kim government, according to The Korea Herald. “I believe we can create the unit by Dec. 1 and have it become operational.” (This is the discription of

=> 틀:Maroon

(8) stripes.com (207-06-06) - This source have a follow sentence: Hedelund, who is going to command the II Marine Expeditionary Force at Camp Lejeune, said his successor will take over as the South Korean marines have formed a 3,000-member quick response force to respond to natiural disasters and other emergencies. They also are developing their own aviation capabilities.

“They want to develop their marine corps toward this task force concept that they have a ready-to-fight kind of crisis reaction force that they would have permanently established. And they have begun that effort,” he said.

The Yonhap news agency reported last year that the unit, dubbed Spartan 3000, had the main purpose of destroying “key military facilities” in North Korea but also has been trained to tackle natural disasters.
=> This source have the term - Quick Response Force and don't have the term - "Special Force Unit" or "Special Opersation".
=> This source is supporting my opinions.

(9) nationalinterest.org (2017-10-19)
=> This source don't have the term - "Special Force Unit", "Special Operations".

(10) popularmechanics.com (2022-08-31)
=> Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as primary or secondary sources.

Source annex (thewolfchild) 편집

  • FYI - widely accepted sources about the unit from around the world:[1][2][3][4]
  1. ↑ Rothwell, James (2016년 3월 21일). “South Korea unveils elite 'Spartan 3000' force as Kim Jong-un threatens to 'bury our enemies at sea'”. 2017년 2월 25일에 원본 문서에서 보존된 문서. 2023년 6월 14일에 확인함 – www.telegraph.co.uk 경유. 
  2. ↑ “South Korea Unveils New Elite Unit Of Marines”. thediplomat.com. 
  3. ↑ “South Korea Plans ‘Decapitation Unit’ to Try to Scare North’s Leaders”. nytimes.com. 2017년 9월 12일. 2021년 4월 20일에 확인함. 
  4. ↑ “Spartan 3000: South Korea's elite decapitation unit”. nzherald.co.nz. 2017년 9월 13일. 2021년 4월 20일에 확인함. 
  • Six additonal refs, as noted in "Second statements by thewolfchild"; (Six South Korean sources are published on 20 March 2016)
  1. first source (Yonhap News) states: "틀:Maroon"
  2. second source (Seoul Broadcasting System) also states: "틀:Maroon"
  3. third source (Channel A) The headline states: "틀:Maroon".

    And it goes on to say: "틀:Maroon"

    "틀:Maroon"

    "틀:Maroon"

    "틀:Maroon"

  4. fourth source (Hankook Ilbo), it states: "틀:Maroon"
  5. fifth source (Kumkin Ilbo): "틀:Maroon"
  6. sixth source (Yonhap English edition): "틀:Maroon"
  • Just a few extra sources to add;
  1. popularmechanics.com
  2. nbcnews.com
  3. nationalinterest.org
  4. stripes.com
  5. thedrive.com
  6. inews.co.uk
  7. ussc.edu.au→news.com.au
  8. english.alahednews.com.lb
  9. vox.com
  10. businessinsider.com

List of Military special forces units discussion 편집

  • Volunteer Note - The filing party has not notified the other editors on their user talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:57, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
    Hi, I notified thewolfchild and Buckshot06. They recognized that I opened this case on dispute resolution noticeboard. Footwiks (talk) 14:01, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Volunteer Note - The filing party appears to have notified one of the two editors, User:Buckshot06. I can't find any current or past evidence of a notice to User:thewolfchild. I also don't see any evidence that a Third Opinion was requested. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
    No, I wasn't aware of this and don't recall being notified or "recognizing that I was". I'm only aware of this because of the ping above from Robert McC. I also noticed that some other participants from the discussion weren't included above and therefore likely weren't notified either (Seventh Ward Dragon -aka "WhichUserAmI", Piotrus and Horse Eye's Back). fyi - wolf 03:16, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
    (1) Notice to User:thewolfchild
    Intentionally, I didn't leave a notice on User:thewolfchild's talk page.
    Because When I left a message on thewolfchild's talk page, he looked angry and warned at my talk page as follows.
    Talk pages... again
    I've aleady mentioned watchlists to you before, but again... the List of military special forces units article, and it's associated talk page, are on my watchlist. As such, it is not necessary for you to post a notice on my user talk page everytime you want me to see an edit you've made to that article, or it's talk page (the one we've had the very, very lengthy discussion on already), I will see it automatically when I check my watchlist. So please, unless it's for a different and valid reason, please stop posting these messages to my user talk page. They simply are not necessary. Thank you - wolf 13:36, 9 June 2023
    Therefore I Ieft a notice on talkpage in List of military special force unit. Simultaneously, I left a notice on Buckshot06's talk page.
    • Evidence
    06:16, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
    I noticed to Buckshot06 at 06:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC), In conclusion, I noticed to involved users at roughly the same time.
    (2) Third Opinion request
    I left a below message in active disagreements section.
    • Evidence
    09:08, 15 May 2023‎
    @Robert McClenon: Thanks for your service. I can't accept a proposed compromise solution by User:thewolfchild.
    So we have to resolve this dispute, But In my humble opinion, You can resolve this dispute very easily as follows.
    By Wikipedia Rule, I'm not sure that I have the burden of proof to show that screenshot of offcial answer is not a forgery.
    I think that Thewolfchild has the burden of proof to show that screenshot of official answer is a forgery.
    Anyways, We can easily check for falsification of official answer from ROKMC - There are website version and document version
    I explained the way to verify an authentic document from ROKMC in the talk page,
    Please find "The way to verify an authentic document from ROKMC" in bold on talk page
It will take just 1 minutes and very easy and simple. Thanks again.Footwiks (talk) 15:16, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

틀:Ec with this version - Oy... ok, 1) the above post is an example of why we use diffs, instead of posting lengthy quotes or comments like "Evidence: see time & date at some place about something".

2) I asked you to stop posting comments about the discussion on my user talk page becuase they belong on the article talk page. I did not ban you from posting in my user talk page, and regardless, mandatory notifications are something you would post on my user talk page because you're actually required to. This is all in the user talk page guidelines, which I have already specifically linked for you on your talk page (see diff-> here).

3) Just because you happened to mention your DRN post in a lenghty comment largely about something else, is not considered a proper notification.

4) Just because you happen to mention waaay back on May 15 that you going to "틀:Tq", and then didn't until today, is not considered "evidence" of a notification.

5) But, with all that said, I clearly know about this DR report now, so... consider me notifiied. - wolf 04:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

  • 틀:Yo Just a note to keep an eye on this sub-thread, before you wade too deeply into this matter. There is a proposed compromise solution that I'm hoping will be accepted shortly and if so, would negate the need for this report to be actioned any further. - wolf 05:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC) - Nevermind. - wolf 16:16, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
  • I was notified of this discussion by Footwiks, I did not choose to participate because I don't believe that Footwiks can be reasoned with nor do I condone the OR-lite that Footwiks has taken in communicating with the subject. I would be more likely to participate if I saw positive outcomes, but given that the most likely outcome is having to wade through endless walls of repetitive and simplistic argumentation with no satisfactory result occurring... Count me out, like way out. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:26, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by moderator (Special Forces) 편집

It is not clear from the responses, especially the response from User:Footwiks, whether there is a content dispute that can be resolved by moderated discussion. It appears that User:Footwiks is giving inconsistent answers, which is not truthful. Footwiks said that they had notified User:thewolfchild, when they had not done that, and then they said that they did not notify them. You also said that you had asked for a Third Opinion when you had not asked for a Third Opinion. Do you really want me to have to fail this case and make a report to WP:ANI? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:29, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Will all editors who wish to have moderated discussion please read the usual rules and indicate whether you agree to the rules, and to moderated discussion. Be civil and concise. Also, please state briefly what part of the article you want changed, or what part of the article you want left the same that another editor wants changed. If at least two editors want moderated discussion and have a disagreement about article content, we will begin moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:29, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Special Forces) 편집

  • Sure... let's have a moderated discussion. This should be interesting. - wolf 03:26, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Zeroth statement by filing party (Special Forces) 편집

  • @Robert McClenon: I misunderstood the rule about DRN, So I noticed to Thewolfchild on talk page of concerning article (List of military special forces units) instead of Thewolfchild'S talk page.
In my defense,
To discusssion start, When I left a message on thewolfchild at's talk page in May, He seems to be angry.
Especially When I left a message about ROKMC answer on talk page of thewolfchild at 11:20, 9 June 2023. thewolfchild left a message at my talk page.
  • thewolfchild's message as follows
Talk pages... again
I've aleady mentioned watchlists to you before, but again... the List of military special forces units article, and it's associated talk page, are on my watchlist. As such, it is not necessary for you to post a notice on my user talk page everytime you want me to see an edit you've made to that article, or it's talk page (the one we've had the very, very lengthy discussion on already), I will see it automatically when I check my watchlist. So please, unless it's for a different and valid reason, please stop posting these messages to my user talk page. They simply are not necessary. Thank you - wolf 13:36, 9 June 2023
I just don't want to make him angry and I guessed that If I left a notice on talk page of concerning article (List of military special forces units), Wolf can perceive notice, due to Wolf's watchlist.
So I left a notice on talk page of concerning article at 06:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC).
Then I noticed to Buckshot06 at 06:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC), In conclusion, I noticed to involved users at roughly the same time.
And Thewolfchild answered "Fair enough (though I thought you had already done that) at 06:45, 10 June 2023 (UTC) on talk page of concerning article.
Therefore, I thought that Thewolfchild perceived the opening of case on DRN
Then I mentioned to you "Hi, I notified thewolfchild and Buckshot06. They recognized that I opened this case on dispute resolution noticeboard." at 14:01, 10 June 2023"
And I left a request at Third Opinion board at 09:06, 15 May 2023
Of course, I could be mistaken about detaild procedure and I really sorry for my clumsy actions.
Anyways Let's have a moderated discussion.
Issue is very simple, Removal or Keeping of "Spartan 3000", Republic of Korea Marine Corps in this part.
About reason of removal, Please check out my dispute overview.
Thank you for your service.

Footwiks (talk) 11:55, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Special Forces) 편집

Please read the usual ground rules (again). By taking part in this discussion, you are agreeing to the rules. I will restate some of the rules. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements often do not clarify the issues. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion; address your comments to the moderator (me) and the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:25, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I apologize for missing the history of the Third Opinion request.

There appears to be one issue, which is whether to list the South Korean 3000 Spartan unit. Is it correct that that is an issue? Are there also any other issues? Please answer only those questions at this time. There will be other questions, such as why or why not, later. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:25, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree to the rules.
Yes, There is only one issue about removal or keeping of South Korean "Spartan 3000" unit on the list.
Thanks for your service.
Footwiks (talk) 01:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Special Forces) 편집

I'll try to be brief; the "Spartan 3000" entry at the special forces list is the issue. It's supported by four reliable sources, and is linked to the ROKMC parent article. Here is what that article looked like prior to this dispute: diff. Now, this may be another, related issue, but Footwiks has drastically changed that article (diff) with no less than 54 edits (current count), since this dispute started. This is despite my repeated objections and requests that he wait for the dispute to be resolved. 틀:Hat

(Apparently he didn't fear making me "angry" then, though he repeatedly states such fears here. Such disingenuous mischaracterizations are basically personal attacks, and this is not the first time. Any more lies, insults, misdirects, off-topic complaining or other nonsense and you can count me out of this process.)

틀:Hab As for the entry, and it's supporting content on the parent article, it's supported by reliable sourcing, so this is pretty straight forward (or at least ought to be); if Footwiks want to change or remove the entry and it's supporting content, all he needs to do is provide sourcing that is clear, reliable, more recent, and has more weight than the current sources, and ensure any changes are factual, as per those sources. If he can do that, than I have no objection to to the entry and it's supporting content being updated. (After all, that is why we are on WP.) - wolf 23:12, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

First statement by filing party (Special Forces) 편집

The cause of dispute is very simple.

As Thewolfchild mentioned, the "Spartan 3000" entry at the special forces list is supported by four reliable sources. (In other words, 4 western news outlets announced that 'Spartan 3000' is a Special Force Unit.)

That's right. But these four reliable sources were from all Western News Outlets and published in 2016 and 2017.

On the other hand, between 2016 and 2023, So many South Korean reliable sources announced that this unit is a just QUICK MANEUVER FORCE, not a Special Force Unit.

That is to say, 'Spartan 3000' has reliable sources with contradicting facts. (South Korean sources vs Westerb sources) and opinions between me and Thewolfchild are likely to run parallel. So I attached dispute template on entry two times.틀:Disputed inline But thewolfchild didn't accept the dispute template and removed it without consensus two times.

In order to resolve current status of parallel, I inquired in person and received official answer from Republic of Korea Marine Corps. (South Korean Government have petition/question and answer system)

This is the screenshot of ROKMC Official Answer - There are website version and document version

  • Please refer to source annex (You can see translation of ROKMC Official Answer)

In conclusion, Sources including ROKMC Official Answer attached by me and Buckshot06 are clear, reliable, more recent, and has more weight than thewolfchild's source and I verified that consequently Thewolfchild's western sources have wrong information by translation error.

But thewolfchild didn't accept ROKMC official answer. Because this screenshot have possibility of forgery via photoshop and violation of sourcing guidelines.

By Wikipedia Rule, I'm not sure that I have the burden of proof to show that screenshot of ROKMC official answer is not a forgery.

Therefore, I opened the case on DRN.

In addition, Now 2023, But Thewolfchild don't have any recent sources that 'Spartan 3000' is an active unit and Special Force Unit. Thewolfchild has Only 4 Western Sources published in 2016 and 2017. (As you know, formation and disbandment in the military units are very frequent, Therefore We need recent sources for accurate information about military unit in Wikipedia)

According to ROKMC Official Answer (Issued 8 June 2023)

  • 현재 '스파르탄 3000(Spartan 3000)'이라는 명칭으로 운영되는 부대는 대한민국 해병대에 없습니다.
  • Translation: Currently, Republic of Korea Marine Corps don't have any units with the name - 'Spartan 3000'.

List of military special forces units article can list only active units. (Foreword of article: This is a list of military special forces units, also known as special operations forces (SOF), currently active with countries around the world)

If thewolfchild want to keep the "Spartan 3000" on the list, he have to show the recent sources that 'Spartan 3000' is active unit and Special Force Unit.Footwiks (talk) 03:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Special Forces) 편집

The issue appears to be one of which sources should be relied on with regard to the Spartan 3000 unit. Are there any other issues?

Are the editors willing to agree, as a compromise, to list the Spartan 3000 unit with a note indicating that its status is reported differently by different sources? If not, the usual tests for sources are whether the sources are reliable and are independent, and whether the source is primary or secondary.

Editors supporting inclusion of the Spartan 3000 unit have listed four sources. Is there any disagreement about those sources? What source is being cited for exclusion of the Spartan 3000 unit? Robert McClenon (talk) 13:48, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by Footwiks (Special Forces) 편집

(1) Yes, Issue is about reliable sources with regard to Spartan 3000 unit. There are not any other issues.
(2) Thanks for your moderation, But I can't accept a compromise. Yes, Let's do the usual tests for sources.
(3) Below sources are being cited for exclusion of the Spartan 3000 unit.
Please refer to upper Source Annex (Sources about: Spartan 3000 is a Quick Maneuver Force, support to remove Spartan 3000 on the list.)
Most important source in the Source Annex (support to remove Spartan 3000 on the list) is the newest ROKMC Official Answer.
It goes as follows.
1.
2016년 언론에서 보도된 '스파르탄 3000(Spartan 3000)'이라는 명칭은 해병대에서 공식적으로 붙인 명칭이 아니며
현재 공식 명칭은 해병대 신속기동부대(ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE)입니다.
Translation =>
ROKMC didn't officially designate the name - 'Spartan 3000' which announced by the the press in 2016.
Currently, official name is ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE.
2.
'제승부대(Jeseung Unit)'라고도 불렀지만 현재는 해병대 신속기동부대(ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE)라는 명칭으로 통일해서
사용하고 있으며 해병대 신속기동부대(ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE)는 새롭게 창설된 특수부대가 아니고
기존 1사단 내 소속 부대들이 번갈아 임무를 수행하는 형태로 운영되고 있습니다.
Translation =>
The name - 'Jeseung Unit' had been in use in ROKMC.
But, currently the name - 'ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE' is in use consistently.
ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE is not a newly formed Special Force Unit.
Currently, subordinate units in the 1st Marine Division undertake a task of the Quick Maneuver Force in turn.
3.
현재 '스파르탄 3000(Spartan 3000)'이라는 명칭으로 운영되는 부대는 대한민국 해병대에 없습니다.
Translation =>
Currently, Republic of Korea Marine Corps don't have any units with the name - 'Spartan 3000'.
According to ROKMC Official Answer, In conclusion, Currently ROKMC don't have a Special Force Unit and 'Spartan 3000 Unit'.
An official response to an information request supersedes everything!
Four western sources supporting inclusion of the Spartan 3000 were published in 2016 and 2017. Now 2023.
As you know, formation and disbandment in the military units are very frequent, Therefore We need recent sources for accurate information about military unit in Wikipedia.
There are not any recent sources that 'Spartan 3000' is an active unit and Special Force Unit.
We can't ignore newest ROKMC Official Answer and We can't do original research.
Thanks for your service.Footwiks (talk) 16:12, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by Buckshot06 (Special Forces) 편집

Wolf suggested on the talkpage that "..the entry would remain on this list, but it would be changed to the "official name" that you wanted, along with whatever sources you have now that you feel are sufficient. The entry would also have a note (eg: in brackets) that the unit nickname is "Spartan 3000". There wouldn't be any prose added, as this is a list article, and any prose would be found in the linked/parent article. This proposal addresses the entry on this list only, and does not involve the ROKMC article. This is a comprise because it addresses both of our positions (though not completely in either case, which is typical in successful compromises)."

I responded to Wolf and Footwiks after a large amount of intervening text that:

"I think that TheWolfChild's proposed solution is fine; the issue is that the changing nickname over time, and its basis, needs to be explained. "Spartan 3000" can be included, and if that nickname was only sourced from one particular point of view (was it only from some Western newspapers originally?- Daily Mail etc sometimes creates nicknames), that can be included. if it was dropped in some official way, that can also be included, with the date. When the "Guarantee Victory" nickname was officially adopted, that would be noted as well. What might be better is a paragraph of text above the entry at [correct page now inserted, sic List of marines and naval infantry forces ] to explain the rotational tasking involved, the initial Spartan 3000 nickname and any relevant sourcing details, and the adoption of the official nickname later. Context there, not hidden down in a footnote at the bottom helps readers understand better, I think."

Now,

  • I have told Footwiks that an official response to an information request supersedes everything - which it would do in terms of truth, if the information can be accepted as accurate. However, as Wolf correctly says, WP works on verifiability, not truth. Secondary sources supersede primary sources. If Wolf remains decided that our rule about secondary sources, years ago, confused by translation and poor journalism (the origin of this entire problem - journalists making things up) must take precedence over an official, up to date, clear explanation of the situation, then our rules make it clear - secondary sources win out.
  • In this case, "Spartan 3000" would have to remain. But, also, a note should be appended conveying the official Korean answer, and thus an explanation that sources disagree. Footwiks, I would urge you to read my text very carefully: Wolf is correct - four newspaper stories meet our standards of WP:V, secondary sources, more than any official WP:PRIMARY source answer.
  • Wolf does not particularly desire text in the entry. However, to avoid lengthy further arguments about minor details that could be easily reduced by a few sentences of explanatory text, I would kindly request also that it be explicitly agreed that each country entry on this page could have paragraphs of text in the entry. Real life is not cut and dried and cannot be reduced to one line. The difference between the Taliban Red Unit and 1 Commando Regiment Zimbabwe National Army is significant, and should not expect to be explained by one line with several footnotes at the end. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by thewolfchild (Special Forces) 편집

Following comments posted to the article talk page yesterday by Footwiks, he noted several sources that he felt somehow supported his position. I have gone through all eight sources he listed and found that six actually support the current entry noted as "Spartan 3000". The seventh and eighth sources are not clear, in that I'm not sure what in them he would reply on to support the changes he seeks (eg: there is no mention of a "Quick Maneuver Force", the details about the units are different (are they the same unit?), and there is no mention of "Spartan 3000" - so no support for that unit's name being changed. I'll add the first six refs to the Source annex, in that they all clearly support the unit name as "Spartan 3000". If/when the "Official Response from the ROKMC" is validated, and if permitted to be used as a source, I would also like to include it as support for the now-well documented fact that the unit's name is "Spartan 3000". - wolf 04:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, these are all South Korean/"Eastern sources, provided by Footwiks, so hopefully this will not only put the "east vs west" sourcing to rest, but also help conclude this report as there is now ten sources supporting the current entry. - wolf 04:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

  1. Question for Robert McClenon; have you thoroughly read the Talk:List of military special forces units#Spartan 3000 page, in it's entirety, and up to the present? Thanks - wolf 04:36, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Special Forces) 편집

It appears that User:Footwiks is stating that the South Korean government stated that the unit in question is a quick maneuver force and is not a special forces unit. Is that correct? The South Korean government is a primary source. Has that statement been reported by a reliable secondary source? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:52, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Should I put this moderated discussion on hold while we request opinions from the reliable source noticeboard? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:52, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Third statements by Footwiks (Special Forces) 편집

(1) I thoroughly checked out all English secondary sources attached by Thewolfchild. 틀:Hat Thewolfchild presented some fake sources (including New York Times (12 September 2017)) and After reading whole prose thoroughly, I revealed logically that the rest of western sources made a translation error or intentional exaggeration for attention of article. 틀:Hab

I also thoroughly checked out all Korean secondary sources attached by Thewolfchild. These sources are saying "Spartan 3000 is a Quick Maneuver Force (신속기동부대). South Korean Sources didn't have any terms - "Special Force Unit" (특수부대) or "Special Operations" (특수작전)

Please Please thoroughly check out 3. Analysis of Western sources attached by Thewolfchild and 4. Analysis of South Korean sources attached by Thewolfchild at Source Annex Part and Please do tests for sources by Thewolfchild.

If you have any question about my analysis, Please feel free to ask questions.

(2) That's correct. South Korean government stated that the unit in question is a quick maneuver force and is not a special force unit in 7 June 2023.

(3) Yes, I had a also newest reliable secondary source.

사단의 2개 여단이 합동참모본부로부터 지정돼 임무를 수행하는 '해병대 신속기동부대'는 기동전력을 상시 편조해 어떠한 지역으로도 신속하게 출동할 수 있는 태세를 갖춘다.
Translation =>
2 brigades undertake a task of the Quick Maneuver Force in turn, ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force is capable of fast deployment outside anywhere.
  • This article don't have any sentences as follows.
"ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force is a Special Force Unit." or "ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force's main task is a special operations..."

(4) Do we have to go to reliable source noticeboard? But now issue about sources are became simple, In my editorial judgment and common sense, Spartan 3000 should be removed on the list. The reason.... Thewolfchild's western sources supporting that Spartan 3000 is Special Force Unit are just translation error or intentional exaggeration for attention of article. Now Thewolfchild don't have any sources to support his opinions.

If you thoroughly checked out 3 and 4 Analysis of sources attached by Thewolfchild, I hope that you will decide by good editorial judgment and common sense.

Thank you for your service Footwiks (talk) 18:21, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Third statements by Buckshot06 (Special Forces) 편집

Third statements by thewolfchild (Special Forces) 편집

Oops... seems this was missed. I will instead use this slot to re-ask a question (that also seems to have been missed) to the moderator;

Robert McClenon; as part of your moderator duties, do you thoroughly read the thread(s) of the talk page(s) that were the origin of the dipute? (eg: Talk:List of military special forces units#Spartan 3000). Thanks again - wolf 15:34, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (Special Forces) 편집

It appears that we have a sourcing disagreement, and I will likely have to request opinions from the reliable source noticeboard. For that purpose, I will need to ask the parties to identify their best sources. I see that User:Buckshot06 and User:thewolfchild have identified secondary sources. User:Footwiks disagrees, saying that their source is more recent, but I didn't see a straightforward identification of a secondary source. Their source discussion is long and confusing. So please clarify or tighten up the discussion of your source. I am not sure that the volunteers at RSN will be able to review your source any better than I was. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Will each editor please provide between one and three sources that they want opinions on the value of?

Please do not appeal to my good editorial judgment. I am not an editorial judge but a mediator.

The alternative is a compromise, which is to list the Spartan 3000 unit with a notation that its status is the subject of disagreement among sources. Are the editors agreeable to that compromise? Is there an alternate compromise? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statements by Footwiks (Special Forces) 편집

(1) If you check out 3. Analysis of 4 Western sources attached by Thewolfchild and 4 Analysis of South Korean sources attached by Thewolfchild throughly, You can understand point of source issue and Thewolfchild source's flaws. But You seems to be very busy.

I want to hold here, Let's go to the reliable source noticeboard. thewolfchild have 4 western sources . So I provide 4 South Korean sources (4 vs 4)

  • History of Quick Republic of Korea Marine Corps Quick Maneuver Force.
    • In March 2016, ROKMC had a formation of Quick Maneuver Force (provisinal nickname: "Spartan 3000")
    • In May 2016, ROKMC officially launched Quick Maneuver Force (official name: "ROK Navy·Marine Corps Quick Maneuver Force", Official nickname: "Jeseung Unit - 제승(制勝)부대")
    • In June 2016, ROKMC had a first excise.
    • Currently, Official name - 'ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force' is in use consistently (discarded all nicknames)
  • My 4 valuable sources are supporting upper History of ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force. (All South Korean sources including 4 about ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force didn't have any sentences: "Spartan 3000" is a Special forces Unit (특수부대) or Main task of "Spartan 3000" is the Special Operation (특수작전)
(1) Yonhap News (2016-03-20) from Yonhap News Agency (연합뉴스) - Secondary source
"군 관계자는 "지난 1일 경북 포항 해병대 1사단 예하에 3천명 규모의 연대급 신속기동부대가 창설됐다"고 20일 밝혔다.
Translation =>
ROKMC had formation of the Quick Maneuver Force - Regiment Size, Subordinate unit of ROKMC 1st Division.
이 부대의 별칭은 고대 그리스의 최정예 전사였던 스파르타인들을 연상시키는 '스파르탄 3000'으로 지어졌다.
Translation =>
dubbed 'Spartan 3000'
(2) South Korean Ministry of National Defense South Newspaper (2016-05-02) from South Korean Ministry of National Defense Newspaper - Primary source
"해군·해병대 신속기동부대‘제승부대 출정
Translation =>
ROK Navy·Marine Corps Quick Maneuver Force - Jeseung Unit launching])
해병대1사단 전투연병장에서는 3000명 규모의 신속기동부대 ‘제승(制勝)부대’의 출정식이 열렸다.
Translation =>
Quick Maneuver Force - Jeseung Unit had inauguration ceremony in the ROKMC 1st Division barrack square)
(3) KBS News (2016-06-08) from Korean Broadcasting System - Secondary source
"해군·해병대 신속기동부대가 공식 출범 이후 처음으로 실전과 같은 훈련에 나섰다.
Translation =>
ROK Navy·Marine Corps Quick Maneuver Force had a first excersice after official launching)
"신속기동부대는 지난 3월 초 편성됐다.
Translation =>
ROKMC had formation of the Quick Maneuver Force in early March)
(4) Official Answer Website version (issued 8 June 2023) and Document version issued (issued 7 June 2023) from Republic of Korea Marine Corps - Primary source)
It goes as follows.
(4-1).
2016년 언론에서 보도된 '스파르탄 3000(Spartan 3000)'이라는 명칭은 해병대에서 공식적으로 붙인 명칭이 아니며
현재 공식 명칭은 해병대 신속기동부대(ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE)입니다.
Translation =>
ROKMC didn't officially designate the name - 'Spartan 3000' which announced by the the press in 2016.
Currently, official name is ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE.
(4-2).
'제승부대(Jeseung Unit)'라고도 불렀지만 현재는 해병대 신속기동부대(ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE)라는 명칭으로 통일해서
사용하고 있으며 해병대 신속기동부대(ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE)는 새롭게 창설된 특수부대가 아니고
기존 1사단 내 소속 부대들이 번갈아 임무를 수행하는 형태로 운영되고 있습니다.
Translation =>
The name - 'Jeseung Unit' had been in use in ROKMC.
But, currently the name - 'ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE' is in use consistently.
ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE is not newly formed Special Force Unit.
Currently, subordinate units in the 1st Marine Division undertake a task of the Quick Maneuver Force in turn.
(4-3).
현재 '스파르탄 3000(Spartan 3000)'이라는 명칭으로 운영되는 부대는 대한민국 해병대에 없습니다.
Translation =>
Currently, Republic of Korea Marine Corps don't have any units with the name - 'Spartan 3000'.

(2) Thanks for your morderation, But I can't accept any compromises. I look forward to good editorial judgment and common sense at the reliable source noticeboard.

Thank you for your service.

Footwiks (talk) 23:34, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statements by Buckshot06 (Special Forces) 편집

This dispute has been caused by a translation, confusion, and journalistic exaggeration issue, as the red-titled table above and source analysis by Footwiks shows.

I suggest we accept Robert's compromise suggestion - listing but a clear notice that sources are in dispute.

I suggest that Spartan 3000 is listed as a special forces unit (by the first three Western translation sources Footwiks cites), and then reference is also made to the original Yonhap news article (and Korean follow on stories), saying that the new Quick Maneuver Force is a ROKMC regiment. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:17, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

틀:Collapsetop

As you know, nickname "Spartan 3000" was discarded before May 2016. I revealed that 2 Thewolfchild's western secondary sources had translations errors or journalistic exaggeration issue. I also revealed the rest Thewolfchild's western secondary sources are not relevant sources about "Spartan 3000".
Why do you protect 4 faulty western sources?
Now, "Spartan 3000" has no any reasons to keep on the list.
Footwiks (talk) 00:36, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

틀:Collapsebottom

Fourth statements by thewolfchild (Special Forces) 편집

Yep, take all the disputed refs to RSN. The reliablility or sources can't be determined here based on the complaints of a single editor such as "fake news" (the NYT!), or original research, translation error, intentional journalistic exaggeration, reporter mistook 'x' for 'y', cultural bias, etc., etc. ... this is precisely why we have RSN. - wolf 01:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (Special Forces) 편집

What part of "Comment on content, not contributors" has not been understood? What part of "Discuss edits, not editors" has not been understood? You don't need to refer to each other by name, let alone to refer to each other in ways that cast aspersions. I have collapsed some of the previous posts. Comments on contributors that were made before I told you to read the rules are left standing. I will be more aggressive in my review of your comments in the future. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Please do not appeal to my good editorial judgment. I am not an editorial judge but a mediator.

Listings of sources at the Reliable Source Noticeboard should be concise, just as a lot of things should be concise. If I present a half-page at RSN, the eyes of the volunteers there may glaze over. I will copy the most concise list of one to three sources that each editor has given. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statements by Footwiks (Special Forces) 편집

I arranged my sources and points concisely as much as possible.

Let's go to the reliable source noticeboard.

(1) Background knowledge
(1-1) Korean "신속기동부대" = "Quick Maneuver Force", Korean "특수부대" = "Special Force", Korean "특수작전" = "Special Operation".
Google translated "해병대 신속기동부대" into "Marine Corps Rapid Task Force or Rapid Maneuver Unit" in the South Korean sources.
For the record, "(대한민국) 해병대 신속기동부대" = "ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force". These are Korean and English official names.
(1-2) From 2016 to 2023, All South Korean sources including 3 source here, have the term necessarily "해병대 신속기동부대 (ROKMC Quick Maneuver Force)" and subsidiarily "스파르탄 3000 (Spartan 3000)", "제승부대 (Jeseung Unit)", as nicknames
When you check out the prose from South Koreans source, Please find the Korean term "신속기동부대", "스파르탄 3000", "제승부대"
(1-3) Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force and Special Force is a unit of different concept in the military, likewise, 신속기동부대 and 특수부대 is a unit of different concept in South Korean military.
Of course some Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force are Special Forces, But definitely all Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force are not Special Forces. This is why Wikipedia have independent 2 articles - Quick Maneuver Force / Rapid Deployment Force and Special Force.)


(2) Sources
These South Korean sources consistently saying "Spartan 3000" is a just Quick Maneuver Force , not Special Force Unit. So These sources support to remove "Spartan 3000 " on the list of military special forces units.
(2-1) Yonhap News article (2016-03-20) from Yonhap News Agency (연합뉴스)
Translation of gist.
ROKMC had a formation of the "Quick Maneuver Force (신속기동부대)", as regiment-level and subordinate unit of ROKMC 1st Division, The unit, dubbed "Spartan 3000 (스파르탄 3000)"
So far, “It took 24 hours for battalion-level units and 48 hours for regiment-level units to start operations across the Korean Peninsula, but the newly formed Quick Maneuver Force can operate within 24 hours even though it is at the regiment-level,
(2-1) SBS News article (2017-11-03) from Seoul Broadcasting System
Translation of gist
Lee Chan-hyuk (musician) attached to "Quick Maneuver Force (신속기동부대)", nickname "Jeseung Unit (제승부대)" - subordinate unit of ROKMC 1st Division which is organized in March 2016. Lee Chan-hyuk will serve as a normal infantryman in the Quick Maneuver Force.
(2-3) Official Answer (Issued 7 June 2023) from Republic of Korea Marine Corps
(If you think that this ROKMC official answer have a possibility of forgery, Please use Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request, You can receive original document.)
Translation of full text
  • ROKMC didn't officially designate the name - "Spartan 3000 (스파르탄 3000)" which announced by the the press in 2016.
Currently, official name is "ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE (대한민국 해병대 신속기동부대)"
  • The name - "Jeseung Unit (제승부대)" had been in use in ROKMC.
But, currently the name - "ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE (대한민국 해병대 신속기동부대)" is in use consistently.
"ROKMC QUICK MANEUVER FORCE (대한민국 해병대 신속기동부대)" is not newly formed Special Force Unit.
Currently, subordinate units in the 1st Marine Division undertake a task of the Quick Maneuver Force in turn.
  • Currently, Republic of Korea Marine Corps don't have any units with the name - "Spartan 3000 (스파르탄 3000)".


(3) Conclusion
(3-1) All South Korean sources including 3 source here, don' have any sentences or terms: "Spartan 3000" is a Special Force Unit (특수부대) or Main task of "Spartan 3000"' is a Special Operation (특수작전).
(3-2) All South Korean sources consistently saying: "Spartan 3000" is a just Quick Maneuver Force (신속기동부대).
(3-4) "There are not any reliable sources to support retaining of "Spartan 3000" on the list of military special forces units..
(3-5) If we regard that "Spartan 3000" is a Special Force Unit. This is the Original Research.
(3-6) Therefore, We have to remove "Spartan 3000" on the list of military special forces units.

Footwiks (talk) 09:50, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statements by Buckshot06 (Special Forces) 편집

WP:Primary, secondary and tertiary sources says: "Deciding whether primary, secondary, or tertiary sources are appropriate in any given instance is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages."

Thus I was incorrect: PRIMARY can supersede SECONDARY if the case is clear and common sense dictates. Here, four mistaken SECONDARY sources from 2016 are superseded by the Korean PRIMARY response from 2023 which exactly addresses the query.

The original "Telegraph" and "The Diplomat" stories had translations errors & made exaggerations. They both cited the Yonhap News Agency. But the original Korean Yonhap source did not say the "Spartan 3000" is a Special forces unit (특수부대), or that "Spartan 3000"'s task was Special Operations (특수작전).

The New Zealand Herald source was the worst of all. The reporter mistook the "Spartan 3000" unit (based on the Telegraph) for the South Korean Army's 13th Special Forces Brigade / Kim Jong Un Decapitation Unit (based on NY Times) then blended the "Spartan 3000" and the 13th Special Forces Brigade together in the article. This is not surprising: NZ reporters have little knowledge of these things.

I would respectfully request that the clarification from the Korean Govt this year be allowed to supersede four translation-garbled stories from seven years ago. Buckshot06 (talk) 03:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Fifth statements by thewolfchild (Special Forces) 편집

See my fourth statement, except change "single editor" to "a pair of editors". - wolf 01:20, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator (Special Forces) 편집

It now appears that one of the editors has changed their view on acceptable sources. So I will now ask the editors whether they agree to remove the mention of the unit in question. That is the only question at this point. I am not asking about sources, although I will resume asking about sources on the next round of discussion. Do we have agreement to remove the mention of the unit sometimes called 3000 Spartan? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:22, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statements by Footwiks (Special Forces) 편집

Yes, I completely agree to remove entry - "Spartan 3000" form List of military special forces units.

Now Issue is reliability of 4 western sources attached by thewolfchild.

Therefore, If we fail to reach a consensus on removal here, We have to go to reliable source noticeboard immediately.

I am ready to join reliable source noticeboard. Thanks for your service.

Footwiks (talk) 08:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statements by Buckshot06 (Special Forces) 편집

As per my fifth statement. Would advocate removal of any mention of "Spartan 3000" from List of military special forces units. There should probably be a paragraph of explanation of the confusion at the ROKMC article. Buckshot06 (talk) 04:23, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Sixth statements by thewolfchild (Special Forces) 편집

No. - wolf 15:16, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

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